Talk Sense discussion

I live in central London, I'm being watched every time I set foot outside the door, and if I dare to park my cab at 4 in the morning to get some milk I get a ticket. They told CCTV was to help with crime prevention instead it criminalises the common man.

Not sure if that's what your on about but I thought I'd get it off my chest.

Think this site is above me somewhat, but it makes a good read.

dmedly {Ed001's Note - that is pretty much exactly what I meant. It would be cheaper to put bobbies on the beat than cameras, but it clearly isn't about crime prevention/detection. If it was then more police on the streets would work better. It is about raising more money through fines. Just another tax for us all.}

It said: For every 1,000 cameras in London, less than one crime is solved per year. Telegraph

"We have estimated that CCTV cameras have cost the taxpayer in the region of £200million in the last 10 years but it's not entirely clear if some of that money would not have been better spent on police officers. - Evening Standard

Massive investment in CCTV cameras to prevent crime in the UK has failed to have a significant impact, despite billions of pounds spent on the new technology, a senior police officer piloting a new database has warned. Only 3% of street robberies in London were solved using CCTV images, despite the fact that Britain has more security cameras than any other country in Europe. - Guardian

After the so called "London Riots" thousands of extra police were put on the streets and crime fell dramatically!

I have been a professional driver in London for 20 years and the first 17 were fine free, the last three numerous fines!

dmedly (the common man) {Ed001's Note - there are so many cameras yet they do nothing but cost ordinary people money, while criminals go unpunished.}

True, they are not there for protection but for income purposes.

Apart from what's already been said, my reasons are as follows:

1) 1 single CCTV camera that has the ability to clearly picture a person's face (esp with a hood up) costs in the region of £4000. They then have to be within, for example, 10m of the individual, and the light has to be right. I know this because one of my mate's dad recently sold his security systems company. I do not believe the govt would spend this kind of money.

2) The cameras that scan streets from up high are good enough to read number plates, but not much else, again this won't clearly identify someone's face. In court, it is well known that a clear shot of someone's face from one of these cameras can be easily scrutinised as being 'not enough evidence' due to blurring etc.

I.e. the cameras are paid for by us, chosen by the government, and don't hold up in court unless, ironically, it is to bring down some massive headline-making convict somehow. But if you get mugged and its on camera, you don't stand a chance. This happened to me.

So cameras are used more for seeing something happening and then getting the bobbies onto it, like a mis-parked car, someone having drunken slash, someone running a red light.

But if you get assaulted then suddenly the camera's 'aren't depicting the suspect clearly enough to provide concrete evidence that will suffice in a court of law' haha. Jokers.

I work for the police - and I can tell you for a fact that CCTV is worth it - it saves lives, end of story; A couple of years ago at about 3 in the morning we glimpsed something on the moniter - it was a fight in the street - 3 males attacking one other - obviously we sent the cars out right away on blues n two's - whilst waiting for the cars to arrive, the lone victim had been knocked unconscious, and the three were taking turns to stamp on this poor guys head - then one dragged him under the wheel arch of a car, got into the driver seat and started the engine - it was then that the police car pulled up infront of them and arrested them all. the poor bloke that got assaulted ended up with severe head fractures and had to have holes drilled into his skull to deal with the swelling, but he lived; and do you know how many people called 999 to tell us this was happening? NOT ONE PERSON.
This is just one of dozens of incidents that I have personally witnessed on cctv - this one sticks in the mind due to the fact i was about to see a mans head get crushed - beleive me, CCTV is there to protect, and it saves lives; End of story. AG {Ed001's Note - would that incident have happened if more coppers were on the beat instead? Would those people have been in a position to commit what was no doubt a repeat offence? CCTV has its uses, no one can deny that, but nothing beats police walking the beat and interacting with a community and becoming a part of it. Kids that get themselves into trouble, because they see no hope of anything else, need a guiding hand, a guiding hand that they don't always get from their parents. Police on the beat can do so much more than any camera, as the money is not there for both, the choice is simple. We need police on the beat more than anything.}

AG I am sorry to hear that story, but even more sorry to say that that one incident does not justify the quite simply awful way we are monitored. And ED has a point that I whole-heartedly agree with. We all pay our taxes and across the board there are still ways in which we can get fined, Car Tax, TV licence, whatever. CCTV is just another way of catching people doing seriously insignificant things and punishing them. e ship billions out to other nations in aid, yet we cut police jobs by thousands when in reality we need to be increasing them tenfold. Then the govt has the CHEEK to ask people to voluntarily train as acting sergeants.

I would rather wake up knowing that when I walk down the street there are police everywhere than go out feeling like I am being watched. "Caught on CCTV" - instantly makes people feel as they they might be doing something wrong. And it is age-old that police love to find no reason whatsoever to pull people over, search them, they are bored. It is a total mess.
The riots proved this. Your argument will be that CCTV was sued to convict several looters, great. I should think so too.

I got mugged in a car park at knifepoint in braid daylight at 6.30pm by lime street station in liverpool 2 summers ago, and there was a CCTV camera pointed at the guys back. I said to him "mate, you do realise you're on camera yeah?" and pointed at it. he looked, I thought 'jackpot', gave him everything eh wanted, called the po-po, and I was told there was not enough evidence.

ED001 there's a lot to discuss with the points you raise- i'll simply say the police cant be on every corner all the time. a camera can. also when an officer gets a prisoner they're off the streets for a good few hours processing and doing reports; and sometimes we need more than one officer to deal with one incident. so resources have to be moved around accordingly. As for social interaction between community and police, yes, i like the notion of community policing - but i prefer to believe in personal responsibility, good parenting and schooling, and the born knowledge of what's right and wrong; no one in the street when it happened called police, people looked out their windows and gawked, and thats what i found most disgusting. I'd encourage anyone to write to their local station/force, and ask for a tour of the control room and a drive around in one of the cars (choose a busy urban force likee mps, gmp or mersyside) - and it will open your eyes.
AG {Ed001's Note - people are too scared to call the police because they don't turn up for hours and even when they do nothing is done about the crime. That needs to be sorted and police need to have less paperwork to do as well. People need to know the police care and that they will get helped when in need. That is why police are desperately needed in the community, rather than sat in control rooms watching through a camera.}

Ed - a good barrister can discredit any officer, and an officer often has to rely on memory -cctv is often ireputable and can not be argued against; i'd say on a daily basis in our control room we get at least 6-7 good arrests from cctv - proper arrests, not traffic offences - robbers, drug dealers, car theives - we don't have the whole team sitting around a moniter eating dohnuts and drinking coffee - its a controler and a couple of operators working the despatch list and casually monitering the cctv. As for more officers on the streets i agree, there should be more, but you simply cant have a cop on every corner, 24hrs a day - its impossible.
A lot of forces have recently been actively recruiting special constables, members of the community giving a few hours a month to go out in uniform and show a visable presence, making their street safer and being a role model - i'd recommend it to anyone with a strong moral will to help their community and make the streets safer
AG {Ed001's Note - specials are a joke, they do not work whatsoever. As for saying camera footage is irrefutable, that is not true at all, the footage is often unusable.}

Personally i'd raise the police budget, cut the paperwork and get more police on the streets. i can see what both Ag and Ed001 are saying and thnk that camera's backed up by a more visible police would have an effect. Also i agree with Ed about the effect police can have in a community, just look at old tv police shows like Dixon and Heartbeat the effect the local bobbies had. Yes parents need to take more personal responsibility but the likes of the police and teachers need to show an example.

Surely we could find the money from somewhere, cut foreign aid to countries like India who don't want it (words of their own ambassdor) and don't need it (obviously they don't as they can have an atomic weapons programme and a space programme) I'd also cut child tax benefits for the rich middle classes. Sickens me that does, these people earning 2-3 times what i do claiming child benefit, their bloody choice to have kids. apologies for the rant at the end. {Ed033's Note - My thoughts on the Police is that we should scrap P.A.C.E. }

Ed001 - haha, i can see i'm never going to convince you; i'd rather not get into an argument but i'd like to know what your expereince with special constables is to come to that assumption; at the end of the day, they're good-willed volunteers who give up their own time to serve the community they live in; as for doing nothing, how do you that? if everyone was a special, there'd be a lot less crime :-) AG {Ed001's Note - except that not everyone is a special and we don't live in the kind of world where a special is suited. Most of them are only interested in the power that comes with the uniform, unfortunately, and not 'good-willed' volunteers as you put it. Maybe it is being a football fan and having to suffer the treatment that comes with that, from police who think you must be a member of a firm because you have a footie shirt on, that is colouring my thinking.}

The police can't catch every criminal so they just go for the easy ones e.g parking tickets and shoplifting {Ed033's Note - How about this. Hardly any of the intelligence on all of the criminals is actually being passed onto the police and as each police authority is a for profit company, each police authority gets as many police constables to fine as many people as possible unlawfully i.e Bill of Rights 1689 Section 2 clause 12. a fine is invalid without you going to court first. }

Hmm... Perhaps Ed001 is a little hypocritical, calls for others to have an open mind on conspiricy issues yet has none himself on specials or CCTV! {Ed001's Note - how do you get that idea? CCTV is not working and nor do specials, that is clear. They can work if they are used IN CONJUNCTION with more police on the beat, like I have mentioned. The problem is in how we are using them. There needs to be more police on the beat, not more cameras. Specials should only be used to compliment the normal police and for those times when there are special events or any other time when there is a need for police over and above the norm. The problem is that they are being used to replace full time police officers. You, on the other hand, have not offered anything to this discussion other than a pathetic childish little dig.}